Curse

Ira Blinks · Aug 31, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaguya

Yeah, it's not a bug as long as you kill the guy trying to exploit it! HURRRRR. ::rolleyes

this kind of argument is exactly why i brought up EoE into this.

Ec]-[oMaN · Aug 31, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

maybe the Luxons will play Jade more often, better for the game anyways.

Symon Butterthingers · Aug 31, 2006, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

But come on, this is clearly a bug. And arguing that it isnt just makes you look foolish.

well, what exactly is a bug? The fact that warriors don't move? I see it being perfectly logical. They are there to protect the turtle. The fact that they have somehow became unstopable spiking team is a bad ballance decision on ANet part. If turtle is dead, there is nothing to protect, so they don't move.
Being triggered by opposite team's action does not automagically make it an exploit. In fact it takes conscious effort of more than one player to pull this off (may i remind you we talking about random arenas).
It is like i say: Hey! that guy killed me, which gave me dp, which made me lose the game, thus it is an exploit! Well, what were you doing when kurzicks were kiting away warriors and killing the turtle?
Think of it as a valuable ingame resource. Losing it can easily cost you whole game. You may say im trying to justify design flaw by using ballance... well maybe I do, it doesnt make me any less right.

Silver_Fang · Aug 31, 2006, 10:05 PM // 22:05

What is the function of the Warrior? Protect the Turtle.
Is it doing his job? Yes, but failed.
Is it a bug? No.

If A-Net consider this is a bug, Then they need to rework the whole Kurzick NPC as they are all bugged.

Gatekeeper went out of Greengate. some NPC got pulled out of the Fort, NPC stay inside of AoE.

Alfrond · Aug 31, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

What is the function of the Warrior? Protect the Turtle.
Is it doing his job? Yes, but failed.
Is it a bug? No.

If A-Net consider this is a bug, Then they need to rework the whole Kurzick NPC as they are all bugged.

Gatekeeper went out of Greengate. some NPC got pulled out of the Fort, NPC stay inside of AoE.

I'm a Kurzick player and I probably always will be, but I have to agree with the people that call this a bug (despite the fact that its kinda fun to see Luxons calling Fort Aspenwood unfair

). I really don't think that A-net intended for the Luxon warriors to just stay put in their spot causing the turtle to not spawn in the process.

Luckily, a compromise can be made! Silver Fang made the excellent point that Kurzicks are also troubled by a possible bug. Sometimes the gatekeepers will run out of the green gate and hang around outside refusing to come back in! Infact one time I remember one going as far as the inner orange gate and then staying there till he died. I reccomend that A-net fix the Luxon warrior bug and the Kurzick gatekeeper bug. Then everyone can be happy!

ChildeOfMalkav · Aug 31, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

What is the function of the Warrior? Protect the Turtle.
Is it doing his job? Yes, but failed.
Is it a bug? No.

If A-Net consider this is a bug, Then they need to rework the whole Kurzick NPC as they are all bugged.

Gatekeeper went out of Greengate. some NPC got pulled out of the Fort, NPC stay inside of AoE.

And no one is disputing that Gatekeepers running out of the gate is a bug. I want that fixed as well. But to say that Luxon warriors getting stuck isnt a bug is being in extreme denial. Just because both sides have bugs doesnt make them negate each other and make them NOT bugs. Such bad logic...

And also there's a difference here, luring Luxon warriors away and getting them stuck is EASY and pretty much consistant. The bug where the gatekeepers run out isnt easy to exploit and inconsistant.

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 31, 2006, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symon Butterthingers

well, what exactly is a bug? The fact that warriors don't move? I see it being perfectly logical. They are there to protect the turtle. The fact that they have somehow became unstopable spiking team is a bad ballance decision on ANet part. If turtle is dead, there is nothing to protect, so they don't move.
Being triggered by opposite team's action does not automagically make it an exploit. In fact it takes conscious effort of more than one player to pull this off (may i remind you we talking about random arenas).
It is like i say: Hey! that guy killed me, which gave me dp, which made me lose the game, thus it is an exploit! Well, what were you doing when kurzicks were kiting away warriors and killing the turtle?
Think of it as a valuable ingame resource. Losing it can easily cost you whole game. You may say im trying to justify design flaw by using ballance... well maybe I do, it doesnt make me any less right.

Hi Ira.

You argument is plenty flawed. If you're saying that it's okay for the Luxons to just stand there when the turtle is dead because the only "job" they do is to protect the turtle, then how is it that they can be lured away from the very thing that they're supposed to protect?

But the whole argument is moot anyway, since it's only your interpretation that says their only job is to protect the turtle. Anyone else with common sense and logic knows that it's also to attack the Kurzick Fort.

And your whole analogy about killing someone and giving them DP...is just laughable. I have no idea where you're trying to go with that....

Rogmar · Aug 31, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

It wouldn't be an exploit if the warriors eventually returned to the death area of the turtle and pushed forward, that way luring would be a tactic not a game winner. So if an npc fails at a job and gets stuck and the Luxons can't do anything about it, they deserve to lose? I think lack of coordination should earn a loss, not buggy AI...

generik · Aug 31, 2006, 11:38 PM // 23:38

I have been doing it with my 55 monk, just draw both mobs of warriors away and tank them through the whole game indefinitely, if they have no mesmers or vamp necros they basically lose.

Silver_Fang · Aug 31, 2006, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChildeOfMalkav

And no one is disputing that Gatekeepers running out of the gate is a bug. I want that fixed as well. But to say that Luxon warriors getting stuck isnt a bug is being in extreme denial. Just because both sides have bugs doesnt make them negate each other and make them NOT bugs. Such bad logic...

And also there's a difference here, luring Luxon warriors away and getting them stuck is EASY and pretty much consistant. The bug where the gatekeepers run out isnt easy to exploit and inconsistant.

The reason i said it is not bug isnt because of Kurzick NPC 'is bugged' as well.

Crappy AI != bug.

The reason they are 'stuck' is because they got crappy AI and they dont know what to do next. If any Kurzick goes near them, they sure will attack and depends on situation, they might able to return to the battlefield. But none of the Kurzick will pull them obviously.

ChildeOfMalkav · Aug 31, 2006, 11:45 PM // 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by generik

I have been doing it with my 55 monk, just draw both mobs of warriors away and tank them through the whole game indefinitely, if they have no mesmers or vamp necros they basically lose.

But that's not what we're talking about. The bug is to lure the warriors away, while someone else kills the turtle, and then let yourself get killed and the warriors will just stand there the rest of the match.

If that isnt an A.I. bug then nothing is...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver_Fang

The reason i said it is not bug isnt because of Kurzick NPC 'is bugged' as well.

Crappy AI != bug.

The reason they are 'stuck' is because they got crappy AI and they dont know what to do next. If any Kurzick goes near them, they sure will attack and depends on situation, they might able to return to the battlefield. But none of the Kurzick will pull them obviously.

Im not going to waste time debating what you want to call it, bug or crappy A.I., it's certainly not something that was intended and really cheap. And as I said before, this is coming from the Kurzick point of view. If you choose to believe me or not, that's not my problem.

It just amazes me that people will deny the obvious when it suits their purpose.

Matsumi · Sep 01, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Kind of old news really. I never really understood how to do it myself, so I haven't.

All of the AI in this battle are buggy though, and most of the kurzick npc's don't stand a chance against any AoE damage. They're just kind of like pigeons waiting to be killed, unless they're facing other npc's directly and not from a siege distance. I would like it if arenanet would take a good look at this place and fix a majority if not all the bugs in it.

Unless it was their true intention for kurzicks to be constantly in panic all the time, running amber like ants, and killing turtles, frantically trying to rebuild gates that go down in 2 seige hits, along with the npc's that are suppose to be defending it. Warriors that don't body block eachother, that attack in sync, killing any opposing force in a matter of seconds, spamming heal sig so they don't die. It's a good thing they sync the coward skill at the same time, otherwise you'd be knocked down a majority of the battle. Mines that the luxons get to spawn at, but the kurzicks have to spawn from the same point no matter what. Turtles that get stuck or warrior gangs that get stuck. Mine cleansers that get taken out by a meteor shower or two and are rits as opposed to the luxon ones which are longbows.

The whole map right now is flawed in my opinion, but you know, if they made any changes to it what so ever, someone would cry nerf till the end of time. "What? They took away our fast way of winning, so that we now have to actually work for it? NERF! Someone sound the NERF alarm! Tell those PvE guys they're somehow affected too. Whaaaa!" lol

Sometimes I wonder why people insist on only playing this battle instead of jade quarry, but then I stop myself and remember why. Because it's just so... BUGGY!

Ole Man Bourbon · Sep 01, 2006, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I think the way the Green gate works really sucks for the Kurz. You should at least be able to repair that even when your guy is under fire. Problem with fixing the Kurz side is that with any decent Monking at all, it would be invincible. As is stands now, good players can win there, but they have to bring skills that your average noob never uses (snares, ally heals, non-enchant heals, stance removals, defensive spirits, running skills, corpse steals, etc). Sorry for off-topic.

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 01, 2006, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

Hi Ira.

You argument is plenty flawed. If you're saying that it's okay for the Luxons to just stand there when the turtle is dead because the only "job" they do is to protect the turtle, then how is it that they can be lured away from the very thing that they're supposed to protect?

They can be lured away because they follow someone threatening turtle. What so hard to understand?

Quote:

But the whole argument is moot anyway, since it's only your interpretation that says their only job is to protect the turtle. Anyone else with common sense and logic knows that it's also to attack the Kurzick Fort.

there is alot of things in GW that defy common sense. Above mentioned gate NPC who are SUPPOSED to guard the gates, but in reality just stand there waiting to die is a good example. You trying to justify game by real life logic. By real life logic single lightning orb should be insta-kill on any target, but it is not. By real life logic luxon warriors should be helping players to attack the fort, but they dont. You say they should. I ask why? And you go back on the route of real life implications over and over again.
The only valid argument so far is that effect of kiting them away is irreversable. But as I said already there are many things there that are like that. If you have let that happen, then you will lose... fair and square.

If you let touch ranger sneak by green gate he will kill one gatekeeper and kurzick will lose. Do you see anyone complaining that luxons can just run thru the gate even with 3-4 NPC standing on their way, who are SUPPOSED to guard it? No! Because YOU have let touchie inside.
Do you see anyone complaining that gatekeepers can't be rezzed? No! Because that is the point of the game - to get stuff killed.
If you let irreversable things happen you WILL lose, and it's your own damn fault. Too many people spoiled by general GW's forgiveness don't understand such simple things, and you are one of them.

Quote:

And your whole analogy about killing someone and giving them DP...is just laughable. I have no idea where you're trying to go with that....

it is a simple analogy. Something that makes you lose is not an exploit.

Vermilion Okeanos · Sep 01, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

What are people smoking? Not enough fort aspendwood apparently.

Look, EoE can be dealt with; People killing turtle can be dealt with; Turtle with 8 NPC can be dealt with. This lure trap is something can not be dealt with. It is equivalent with luxon player luring the gatekeeper and gunther outside of green gate, and get the kurzick wtfpwned instantly. There was no hope for luxon side the moment 1 warrior NPC get stuck, let alone both side of warriors got stuck. They fixed gunther (barely), they should fix this too.

ChildeOfMalkav · Sep 01, 2006, 01:36 AM // 01:36

Gnome you were right. Symon is Ira Blinks, only he could spout such faulty logic.

Nice ban evasion Ira Blinks. Mods, IP check?

Lord Aro · Sep 01, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Hmm.
Was there an update to aspenwood recently that caused this behaviour? I've never seen the turtles stop spawning if you kill the turtle then lure and ignore the warrior guards (4 is a lot, but I won't get in to that).

Many times when I play aspenwood I go as a turtle killer. Based on killing the turtles then running amber, ignoring the warriors. Often I kill the turtle at the spawn point. The second turtle spawns with his 4 guards, the entire group of 9 will head out when activated.

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 01, 2006, 02:58 AM // 02:58

ChildeOfMalkav
if my logic is faulty, show me how. So far you've done nothing to prove yourself except repeating same useless statement in many different ways. I on on the other hand used very specific way of proof by taking statement known to be true (EoE not being a bug or exploit) and showing how it is equivalent to the statement in question. If you think this tactic is faulty you would have to prove that first to math experts around the world.
Apparently that is too hard for you, so instead you go back to flames. I'm sorry I got nothing to answer to that except that this conversation is over.

Symon Butterthingers · Sep 01, 2006, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

What are people smoking? Not enough fort aspendwood apparently.

Look, EoE can be dealt with;

allow me to disagree. At the rate things die in aspenwood even 1 second EoE is up is more than enough to do lethal damage. And even if you kill it, luxon player can always just oath shot and put it up again.

Quote:

People killing turtle can be dealt with;

great, something we aree on. Now if turtle is still alive there is no problem with warriors getting stack, right?

Quote:

Turtle with 8 NPC can be dealt with.

maybe, maybe not. Why would turtle have 8 warriors when it should be only 4 anyway?

Quote:

This lure trap is something can not be dealt with.

you have been given two distinct ways to deal with it and one of them you named yourself. Now you turn around and say "no". How does this make any sense?

Quote:

It is equivalent with luxon player luring the gatekeeper and gunther outside of green gate, and get the kurzick wtfpwned instantly. There was no hope for luxon side the moment 1 warrior NPC get stuck, let alone both side of warriors got stuck. They fixed gunther (barely), they should fix this too.

errr... no it is not. Loosing even both turtles does not make you auto lose. You still have 8 players to push thru weak NPC and kurzick players. Sure it is much harder, but hey 8 warriors per turtle is fine to, right?

Orinn · Sep 01, 2006, 03:16 AM // 03:16

I think it's amusing that people are claiming that losing a turtle squad is on the same level as losing the match. Kinda shows me why I ignore all the people saying that the turtles aren't ridiculously overpowered to begin with.

I played several matches today with my spirit bond monk. Each time, I got to a turtle and stayed there, negating the entire team of warriors and turtle. Amazing how many luxons ragequit when they figured out that I wasn't gonna KILL the turtle, just stall it for the rest of the match, negating it completely.

Maybe it's time for ANET to look at FA and decide whether they want the turtles to be the single most important element of the battle? If they're that powerful that losing one of them makes people this angry, they might be just a little unbalancing to the map.

And yes, I believe the warriors getting "lost" is a bug. they shouldn't wander far from the turtle, say longbow range, and then they should lose aggro and head back to their spot. Easier for me to hold the entire group that way anyway.